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“Someone asked me what the point of Ghalib’s poetry was when no one understood it today. I told them I won’t blame Ghalib for people’s ignorance,” actor and musical composer Arshad Mehmood said during a panel on the Emergence of Urdu Rap at the Karachi Literature Festival (KLF) on Sunday.

The panel featured Sindhi rapper Babar Mangi, emerging rapper Ash Rohan, and Mehmood. It had also promised to feature rapper Faris Shafi, who was a no show.

Moderated by Anoushey Ashraf, the one-hour-long session explored many topics, including rap’s growing popularity in Pakistan, its role in resistance, the scrutiny it continues to receive from older listeners and how to bridge that gap.

The session, albeit well-intended, left a lot to be desired in terms of the topic, ie “the emergence of Urdu rap” itself. But Mangi, Rohan and Mehmood offered interesting perspectives to an audience eager to learn about rap’s history and the shape the genre is taking in Pakistan.

“You can say things…openly in rap,” Mangi said of the genre’s versatility and its ability to allow an artist to express, entertain, resist, and empower.

When asked about the criticism rap receives from older folks refusing to accept it as a form of music, Mangi said, “People think rap has no melody, while most of the time, we’re rapping on two to three notes. It’s rhythm and poetry… It’s just a different style of music. It originated with MCs interacting with the audience over the music. So just because it doesn’t involve singing doesn’t mean it’s not a song. Those who say it’s not music don’t have an understanding of music.”

Mehmood, who said he wouldn’t prefer listening to rap either, added, “I just feel young people, whatever I’ve heard, have a lot to say but they lack the vocabulary. They need to be able to express themselves better because rappers, before anything, are poets. So, as a buzurg (elder), I would like to ask Babar and Ash to make it more meaningful.”

When Ashraf interjected, suggesting rappers could also make music that was light-hearted, Mehmood urged them to make light-hearted, meaningful songs. “I could sit here and quote Ghalib or I could tell a light-hearted joke,” he added, before proceeding to actually crack a joke, leaving the audience in fits. “The joke,” he pointed out, “had a message, despite being funny.”

Mangi, the ‘Ayi Ayi’ singer, assured the audience that Pakistani hiphop music today is a lot better than it was before. “Just like people need good food but they take their time to develop a taste for it, they need good music. Hiphop music today is a lot better than it was before because people hadn’t heard it enough. As they hear more of it, they will develop a taste for it and it will evolve further,” he explained.

Ashraf recalled a time people used to question the Young Stunners’ Talha Anjum and Talhah Yunus for their choice in music. Today, the former has earned the crown of ‘Mr Most-Streamed’ in Pakistan while hiphop music is everywhere.

She then asked Rohan how she believes older listeners could be introduced to the genre in a way that they could understand it better. “We could fuse rap with qawwali or classical music,” she said. “And infuriate people,” Ashraf quipped.

“A qawwali purist will not be able to accept that,” said Mangi. “But if it’s good, people will appreciate it,” added Ashraf. “Some will like it, some won’t. But it’s definitely one way to introduce rap to a newer audience,” assured Rohan.

“Even advertisers are adopting rap music in Pakistan, its popularity has soared,” said Mehmood. “So, it’s alright. Just because white shirts are the most-sold shirts out there, doesn’t mean people stop making coloured shirts. So rap music can exist and stand alone, so can classical music, and both can have their own listeners.”

When asked about the scrutiny hiphop music receives in Pakistan because of the language often associated with it, Mangi said, “But cursing and swearing is not the criteria. Jesa insan hoga wesi he baat karega [It depends on the person].”

Mangi also revealed that he’s still exploring his sound and currently working on a 12-song album. “Every song in that album is different,” said the Coke Studio 15 artist.