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I would not say Pakistan is any less right-wing than India, shares Audrey Truschke

The historian shared her thoughts on Mughal rule, Pakistan, India and violence that exists on both sides of the border
Updated 31 Mar, 2020

Mughal historian Audrey Truschke is one of the few academics who gets trolled for commenting on her own area of expertise —South Asian history and present.

But the Rutgers professor, who has authored two award-winning books, Culture of Encounters: Sanskrit at the Mughal Court, and Aurangzeb: The Man and the Myth, remains unfazed by her critics, including right-wing Hindutva ideologues.

Truschke was recently invited to the Lahore Literary Festival as part of a panel that discussed the current situation in India, its violent protests and space for dissent.

Fortunate enough to have had a short encounter with Truschke, Images sat down with her and gained insight into her opinions on India and Pakistan —and if we can find clues in the past hinting at what we see today.

Where do you see India and Pakistan in the future, individually and as neighbours? Especially after the rise of the right-wing?

Audrey: In India right now, we’re seeing the rise of right-wing ideologies very strongly and that appears to be resulting in a seismic shift. That’s something that perhaps we saw in certain ways in Pakistan a long time ago and that’s why we’re all talking about India a lot at the moment because the big changes are there. I don’t know where this goes exactly.

I do take heart in the ongoing protests in India and that many Indians aren’t happy with the direction of their nation and are making that known and are resisting. Maybe it’ll work, maybe it won’t. I would not say Pakistan is any less right-wing than India.

In many ways, Pakistan is more oppressive; your blasphemy laws are much more robust, Pakistan has been intolerant of its religious minorities for decades, now often dealing with them very severely. I applaud the recent attempts to restore a couple of temples, but that doesn’t make up for the ongoing persecution of religious minorities here.

A problem with that is the history of India and Pakistan was identical until 1947. So, modern-day Pakistan just doesn’t deal with the overwhelming majority of its actual history, which includes aspects that are Hindu, Buddhist, and far more. I find that very frustrating.


I don’t see major change on this front right now. Pakistan seems to care about the oppression of religious minorities when it’s across their border.

Did you foresee India going down this path?

Audrey: As historians, we often don’t make precise political predictions, so in that sense, I had no special insight into the exact way it happened, such as election outcomes and the unveiling of specific legislation.

However, in terms of being aware of Hindutva ideology and its general trends likely ramifications, yes, much of what has happened has been predictable.

Like other scholars who work, among other things, on modern South Asia, I read and teach about Savarkar, the history of the RSS, the 1992 destruction of the Babri Masjid and more.

There have been attempts in the recent past, both in India and Pakistan, to rename historical monuments or other reminders of Mughal history in India and, separately, British and/or Hindu history in Pakistan. How do you see this?

Audrey: The Mughals represent everything that Hindutva ideologues say should have never been able to exist. They were a large-scale Muslim-led empire that, for its times, was notably tolerant of religious minorities; they did not try to convert Hindus en masse.

These facts go against the BJP’s entire narrative of Muslim invaders and oppressors, and that narrative is crucial to justifying Hindutva violence and hatred today. The attacks on the Mughal monuments that we are seeing in India are, economically speaking, completely ludicrous.

Among monuments controlled by the central Indian government, the top five most visited bring in slightly more than half of all revenue from all centrally owned monuments; all of those five were built by Muslim dynasties, four of them by Mughals.

The Taj Mahal, in particular, is a cash cow for the modern Indian state and yet you have BJP politicians running around saying it was Tejo Mahalaya. First of all, no one’s going to go visit Tejo Mahalaya and secondly, it’s historically insane.

Truschke's book is a reassessment of the controversial king, Aurangzeb
Truschke's book is a reassessment of the controversial king, Aurangzeb

This line of mythological thinking, especially given the potential financial cost, is only explainable according to extreme Islamophobic sentiments. About similar sentiments in Pakistan, as I see it, because of the strong Muslim identity embedded in how Pakistan has been formulated over the last 70 plus years, the whole Pakistani state narrative has to do with Muslim history.

A problem with that is the history of India and Pakistan was identical until 1947. So, modern-day Pakistan just doesn’t deal with the overwhelming majority of its actual history, which includes aspects that are Hindu, Buddhist, and far more. I find that very frustrating.

I think dealing with the rich, diverse history of the subcontinent, as Pakistan's past as much as it is India's past, might well change the nature of Pakistani national identity.

History lessons in both countries are said to be distorted, at least on the school level. To what degree do you think they’re distorted and how does the new generation deal with it?

Audrey: There are projects that compare Indian and Pakistani textbooks on similar subjects. Yes, there are distortions on both sides. It’s not always the same subject, although sometimes it is.

For instance, Aurangzeb is mutilated on both sides of the border, in different ways, and individuals who want a more accurate story can deal with that by doing their own research, reading professionally trained historians, and learning to think critically.

You may look around Lahore and see beautiful old buildings, but to understand them in their historical contexts you need to learn the historical method, where they came from, and who built them and why.

That knowledge is not necessarily available to everyone on the same level as for a professional historian, but a lot of us do write for popular audiences, at least from time to time, and we do try to make basic information available for anyone who’s willing to do a bit of reading and a bit of thinking.

Why write about Aurangzeb specifically?

Audrey: Well, I wrote about Aurangzeb because I realised I had been thinking about him for nearly a decade and had written almost nothing, so I had a wealth of knowledge. And I also wrote about him because of the response to an interview to an Indian newspaper in 2015.

The Hindu right-wing feel much more empowered to speak their views openly than they did before the Modi Sarkar. And I also think that views are rapidly changing in India, which partly explains why the opposition to somebody like me has accelerated in India over the last few years, despite the fact that I haven’t published another book since Aurangzeb.


In that interview, I said all of this stuff I thought was controversial about Akbar, and nobody cared. I said two lines I thought were non-controversial about Aurangzeb, essentially how he is a misunderstood king, and I felt like the world exploded at me in anger.

Explore: Past present: Understanding Aurangzeb

I realised by the vehement response coming largely from India and from Indians who emigrated to the US that a couple of decades of historical thinking about Aurangzeb Alamgir had not been translated to a popular audience. So, I thought someone has to write a book about Aurangzeb communicating a basic historian’s viewpoint to everyone else.

Audrey Truschke and art historian F.S. Aijazuddin at the Lahore Literary Festival
Audrey Truschke and art historian F.S. Aijazuddin at the Lahore Literary Festival

What was the response to the book like in Pakistan?

Audrey: Quite positive. For many Pakistanis, the fact that I wrote about Aurangzeb and didn’t just bash him is enough. I think there are many people in Pakistan who disagree with my interpretation of certain things, especially when I poke a bunch of holes in the idea that Aurangzeb was this super pious, orthodox, Sunni guy.

I talk about his tolerance of Shias and intolerance at different points. I talk about how he was talismanic, how he was into Sufis to the extent of being buried in a Sufi shrine. I think that has been a little bit challenging for some Pakistanis, but the response has generally been “Oh that’s interesting. Oh, I’m not sure about that, so let’s have tea and talk about it." This is very different from the screaming and death threats that I’ve received from India.

Why do you think the response was so?

Audrey: The Hindu right-wing feel much more empowered to speak their views openly than they did before the Modi Sarkar. And I also think that views are rapidly changing in India, which partly explains why the opposition to somebody like me has accelerated in India over the last few years, despite the fact that I haven’t published another book since Aurangzeb.

Read: Aurangzeb: the man and the myth

What are you writing next?

Audrey: I just finished a book, which is coming out in January 2021 and it’s about Sanskrit histories of Indo-Muslim rule. We usually talk about the Delhi Sultanate, the Mughals, the Deccani Sultanates by using Persian-medium sources.

Instead, I’m using about three dozen Sanskrit-medium sources and trying to figure out what pre-modern India’s Hindu and Jain elites thought about the Muslim Other. And as it turns out, they didn’t think of them as Muslim very often, and they didn’t always think of them as the Other either.

Comments

gghh Mar 30, 2020 12:02pm
Thanks for speaking the truth.
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Shariq Mar 30, 2020 12:11pm
I hope our politicians, government, legislation and judiciary reads her opinion and try to address the concerns. Before finger-pointing, we should clean our house first.
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Tejinder Pal Mar 30, 2020 12:21pm
Kudos to this historian. If one is honest most Indians do not like or want this term Modi govts hinduvta agenda. Indians are secular in nature, not perfect by any means but still secular overall. Unfortunately the short fuse of division is constantly lit for abhorrent selfish gains in politics. Add to that the 70 odd years of Pakistan bleeding India with self proclaimed small cuts, which became the reason for Modi win as finally someone stoodup and gave back to Pakistan what it got. But yes its time to stop, focus on development. The eroded trust is going to take its time to heal though.
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Parvez Mar 30, 2020 12:24pm
She is right ... but Pakistan never loudly claimed to be secular.
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Fastrack Mar 30, 2020 12:24pm
They can only speak in Pakistan. In India they deported any foreigner reporting the truth.
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Thomas Mar 30, 2020 12:27pm
No minority was attacked, beaten, killed under government supervision in Islamabad. Delhi tops in all kinds of pollution.
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Justice Mar 30, 2020 12:28pm
Indians know India better than a less known foreign historian.
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Justice Mar 30, 2020 12:29pm
I am sorry... Who is Audrey Truschke?
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Indian Mar 30, 2020 12:29pm
Kudos to Pakistan for allowing free speak. Unimaginable in suffocated India under Modi.
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Haramullah Mar 30, 2020 12:31pm
These 'Historians' have the right to express themselves, but they are not ready to give the same right to others. When somebody argue with them and they are unable to convince or justify their point logically they say aggression is on rise. With 'History' there are thousands school of thought all are with partial evidance, particularly Mediaeval History. It all depends with which school of thought you are convinced.
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john joseph Mar 30, 2020 12:43pm
good to see a genuine comments and truth being said. India is not heading in the right direction and current government is spewing hate and rallying the blind around them for politics. As Audrey rightly pointed out India is 40 years behind Pakistan in its religious hate and bigotry. But i am afraid we will also get there soon. Hope the sane Indians are able to stop this onslaught of hate, failing which we will end up like Pakistan , another poor country at war with itself.
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BrownFlower Mar 30, 2020 12:48pm
Wait. This land existed before 1947?
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SayNoToPlastics Mar 30, 2020 12:53pm
While appreciating the respected lady points of view , the reality in Pakistan is that there is no state sponsored atrocities being comitted on any religious minority. What she believes is Pakistan right wing is nothing but a group of zero weight , self proclaimed politicians with high nuisance value. These were imposed on most Pakistanis by the Zia regime and a 'brotherly' country. They constitute a serious disease which hopefully Pakistan is recovering from as shown by the repeated failure of these people in successive elections.
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Talat Haque Mar 30, 2020 12:56pm
So refreshing to listen to a rational truthful person [historian!]
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Tariq Mar 30, 2020 12:59pm
I see it a opinion of one person and anyone can have their opinion but as for history there is never really a truth. So may think what she make feel but people can not agrees with her opinion.
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A. ALI Mar 30, 2020 01:01pm
Really an historian ?...
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Janjua Mar 30, 2020 01:08pm
Agree
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Cris Dan Mar 30, 2020 01:19pm
On the contrary, a neutral historian needs to be an outsider as he can analyse and research without emotional attachments,emotional likes and dislikes,emotional obsessions and without brain washing by mothers in childhood and school times. Therefore this historian is reliable as she needs not to put any personal bias as she has none being an outsider.
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Cris Dan Mar 30, 2020 01:21pm
A Doctor in history from a prestigious American university and with a lit of serious research work at het credit.
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dinomite Mar 30, 2020 02:01pm
who is she what is her claim to having knowledge on this subject...nil zilch she is a no body
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TBH Mar 30, 2020 02:11pm
To understand who is more tolerant, one just have to go around these countries and see condition of non muslim monuments in Pakistan and muslim monuments in India. The present day Pakistan was once a land of multi religions but how many of these prominent monuments are in worthy condition.
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Zak Mar 30, 2020 02:18pm
Aurangzeb was one of the greatest Ruler in the world. Full stop. Indians can scream and shout but that is reality.
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Mustafa Ansari Mar 30, 2020 02:29pm
Ohh Really, the entire world knows the truth. @thomas you actually need to come out of dirty pond and look at world next to you.
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Sid Mar 30, 2020 02:37pm
That’s a fair assessment although the present government is making progress in giving religious minorities more rights.. However I take exception to the fact the historian says pakistan restores a couple of temples here and there... does she know the significance of Kartarpur?
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Frank Mar 30, 2020 02:46pm
This supposed historian seems totally unaware that many nations of different ethnicities, languages and cultures inhabit South Asia. South Asia was a subcontinent not a country. A far more accurate view of South Asian history is offered by Perry Anderson.
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Saawan Mar 30, 2020 02:55pm
i have the right not to agree with this woman
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Bunny response Mar 30, 2020 03:23pm
True!
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JAYHIND Mar 30, 2020 03:28pm
Indians wont read her book, Pakistanis cant read.
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Mark Mar 30, 2020 03:49pm
Any white skinned person can come to the subcontinent and give sweeping opinions on more than a billion people without batting an eyelid. Their actual worth is however being tested by Coronavirus.
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harry Mar 30, 2020 04:08pm
Her books will sell many more in India , not in Pakistani.
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SivaD Mar 30, 2020 04:43pm
Nice interview. It is such a scourge to try to impose political and popular views, on historians and their work. If we only want to hear what we wish to hear, only platitudes will be heard, and we will become more and more dumb as a culture.
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SivaD Mar 30, 2020 04:44pm
So true!
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UM Mar 30, 2020 06:07pm
Never heard of her...historian of little gravitas.
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Bangbang Mar 30, 2020 06:12pm
A nice point of view.
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amin khan Mar 30, 2020 06:19pm
Why don't she visit the two countries and see the difference
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Big John Mar 30, 2020 07:28pm
Pakistan is a bit less right wing, especially after Nawaz Sharif has departed.
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Jimmy. Mar 30, 2020 09:54pm
@ Tajinder Pal, What hogwash.
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aslam Mar 30, 2020 10:05pm
all fingers are of different sizes.She can have her book and her ideology
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AZRA khan Mar 31, 2020 12:17am
Each and every sentence of her interview is correct. Whatever she said about right wing hindua and their freedom to put up their opinion is correct.Because being Indian Muslim i can justify how we are tolerated and harassed if we ask for our rights and freedom in modi sarkar...
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AZRA khan Mar 31, 2020 12:23am
@SID what kind of progress uh are seeing for minorities in india...because we are still protesting on roads to get rights .we know how our men are charhed ,how are ladies are treated out.
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Irfan ul Huq Mar 31, 2020 02:30am
It is not opinion it is collection of historical facts that she has put together.Facts are immovable objects only their interpretation is different
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Asif Ali Mar 31, 2020 09:20am
Past history and present situation of minority, including women, data telling truth, truth is open to all. compare % of minorities after independence in Pakistan and Bharat.
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Laila Mar 31, 2020 08:15pm
Well evidently she is an expert on South East Asia and has authored books. Did you not read the article? It gives a detailed presentation, otherwise Google is always your friend.
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Asam akram Apr 01, 2020 11:53am
This is typical of someone that hasn't spent time investigating just relying on a few incidences and false reporting fake news to build up an image showing a picture that isn't true. Mughal history gives you zero insight into how modern religious tensions work.
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Chilman K Saafi Apr 01, 2020 08:30pm
Had Pakistan bled India for 70 years, there would be no India. Modi won because of religious hatred of the majority in India, towards the minority Muslims in India. How long will you live in self-denial by always targeting Pakistan?
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Zak Apr 02, 2020 10:09am
'I am sorry... Who is Audrey Truschke? The one who will teach you correct and truthful history.
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PT Apr 02, 2020 10:25am
I think you have put to across in the best way. Nice to see your comment get posted.
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PT Apr 02, 2020 10:33am
Even a complete duffer can see the difference between the liberal setup of the two countries. It is just that recently India has taken hard steps against the policy of 100 cuts, so the outrage by so called intellectuals.
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ismail khan Apr 02, 2020 04:55pm
Why RSS/BJP lie every time?
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Saindass Apr 05, 2020 07:09pm
I have read the author's book on Aurangzeb; it was eye-opener; it removed many false stories that we were taught in traditional history books.
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